Minimum board weights – are they too low?
July 11, 2009 · Print This Article
Those of you that have read my other Journal entries on LBWS know that I am an avid raceboard sailor. Over the years I have had many different boards some more successful than others. In recent times I have owned the last F2 lightning and Mistral Pan am that came out of the Cobra Factory in Thailand as well as the recent Starboard Phantom also from the Cobra factory.
Generally speaking all of these boards have been great boards in their own right. They have pointed and railed well, been quick and a pleasure to sail. However, they also share a common and similar construction that delivers a board to a set weight. That is as light as possible.
“Great” I hear you saying, “light is king”, it makes boards faster. Yes this is true, but at what cost? More on this later…….
Like most raceboard sailors I sail at a local sailing club and race against other Raceboards, Windsurfer One Designs and dinghy classes such as Lasers. Those of you that know Windsurfer One Designs (WOD) no that if you have an incident on the water, such as a port and starboard challenge, that the raceboard will come of second best to the WOD. This board is a solid construction that is very durable. Yes I know, it weighs more. Equally, running into a Laser will not do your raceboard any good and little to no damage to the Laser.
I am sure that you can see where I am heading with this one. Modern Raceboards are fantastically light but very fragile. The manufactures have traded long term durability for weight savings. This is great if you are going to get a new raceboard each year. But if like most of us you do not have that much cash you provably would expect to get at least 5 years out of your new raceboard.
Some of the old Raceboards in the fleet that I sail in are late 80’s and early 90’s models. These boards have lasted well beyond 5 years and are still going strong. Interestingly they are not that much heavier if at all. I suspect that when these boards where made more reinforcing (carbon) was used. This of course has a price.
So, I see a situation where we have pushed the manufactures to make boards as light as possible and as cheap as possible. Surely this is a recipe for a 1 year life span boards that are fragile but quick. Is this what the majority of us want? Perhaps I have oversimplifies the situation here?
I do not blame the manufactures for this situation. I am sure that you have seen in our sport this never ending diatribe of drivel about board weights. Check out the starboard forum for many examples. I recall when the RSX first came out there was a huge outcry that it was too heavy and that people could not lift it off their car. Really, what a load of shit. Yes the board may weight more than your slalom board…but its not a slalom board and is built for a different purpose.
I presume that the bulk of longboard sailors out there, weather they be raceboard or other will agree with me on this one? So how do we rectify this situation? Firstly as the people who use these boards we need to tell the manufactuers that we want our boards to last longer and that we are happy for the boards to weigh a little more. So this universally affects everyone we could raise the minimum board weight in the Raceboard Class rules. Yes, I said rise the minimum weight. Perhaps a little controversial but maybe the boards will last longer.
Boards that last longer will ensure that there is a greater supply of second hand boards on the market. This is essential for our sport as a “entry platform” for new sailors who are not ready to make the financial commitment associated with buying a new board.
Perhaps another solution is for manufactures to make two models of their new boards. So for example you could get the “Standard” Phantom and the “Race” Phantom. The Standard has more carbon and reinforcing and will consequently last longer. The race Phantom is stripped back, weighs less and will consequently not last as long? The Standard may weigh a little more, but in the scheme of things that weight is irrelevant for most of us weekend warriors. One less beer and meat pie before the race would also achieve a weight saving, but I am not willing to give that up.
So what do the rest of you think on this topic? Please let us know…
Hi Pat,
I just read these two new articles, “New Phantoms hit the shore” and “Board weights, are they too low”… good stuff.
You know how I feel about it… I have written quite a bit about it in different posts in the Discussion Forum here. There have been many different questions and threads the last few months, where I have made numerous different points on this subject you’re covering here.
And the second comment by Alan W. after the “Phantom” article illusrated it perfectly… a screwdriver slips out of his hand and falls 2.5 cm to the board deck, and puts a hole it it. Are you kidding me!!
What happened to all the designers and engineers that built the Bic’s, F2’s, Fanatic’s, Tiga’s, Hi-Fly’s Mistral’s, AHD’s, O’Brien’s, Sailboard’s, and all the other’s I’m forgetting? They had the technology from the late 80’s to the mid 90’s… just copy it.
From 1990 to 1995, there were probably 50 boards offered that were all from 3 to 4 meters long, with mast tracks, retractable centerboards, footstraps and decent fins. The market won’t handle that now… but if you took 4 or 5 different designs, covering lightweight adults (which teens would also use) all the way up to sizes for “the big guys”… and offered them in a couple different construction methods (one being cheap, durable and heavy… and the other being expensive, fragile and light)… I think they would sell world-wide.
Cobra needs some competition.
PS – Regarding your comment that these new light boards are approx the same weight as the old raceboards, yet are more fragile. Yes, however remember they’re also more volume. Anyway, I know you already know that… I just wanted to mention that how I used to compare boards was to look at volume, weight and price… and that’s how I would decide where to spend my money.
Can Cobra make a 280 L board that is as durable as a ‘93 Lightning Race with 249L? Sure the 280L board would weigh more than the 249L board… and that’s fine. It would be a great mix of Vol, weight, durability and price.
Hi!
After trying a bunch of alternatives for “all conditions” sailing (formula, slalom…) I have decided to go back to the Raceboard.
In the latest 2 weeks I’ve been trying to find a “decent” raceboard in the market (Spain). Spending 1800-2200€ is far too much for me at this point. I have found many boards, at different prices and in different condition. BUT they all where 1995-2000 boards!!!!! and most part of them ready to sail!!!! I have bought an Equipe II for less than 150€…
My point is, after 10-15 years of technology evolution, is it not possible to make a stronger board with the same weight as older boards?
Are new raceboards (Phantom and X-380) really so delicate? Are they so delicate as a formula board? I was about to buy one of those boards maybe after the summer, but if they are so delicate… maybe I stick on my Equipe II.
Congratulations for your journal!
Camilo Cuyás
Barcelona
Camilo. In Spain I understand there are some great deals on the Starboard being offered as an attempt to give a real push to the class. Make some enquiries with your federation or SB importer…
The new SB is delicate in terms of puncture resistance. That doesn’t mean the construction is poor – it just means you have to be careful. A board that can stand up to a Laser isn’t going to happen. Try lifting a Laser on to your car roof.
I agree that offering 2 levels of construction might be good (much as Fanatic did with the Megacat and X-class Cat). But I’d rather race the light one thank you very much!
More important perhaps is if the new boards will stand up to prolonged hard but fair use. Time will tell on that one but the construction methods used are well proven on standard shortboards and provide a pretty reasonable lifespan. Also if the skin does get the occasional ding then repairs are relatively straightforward.
In my experience “light” and “short lifespan” are not synonymous. Look after your light board and it will last as long or longer than the ‘tougher’ cheaper constructions – which although more puncture resistant do seem more prone to serious structural issues as well as excessive flex and poor non-slip adhesion.
The basic problem is that carbon is stiff and cood in tensile loading but breaks at about 1.5% elongation.This usually happens on collision or impact in a localised area. Adding more carbon will not change this much.The older spec boards had ,for example,hybrid cloth of glass and carbon and nomex honeycomb in the danger deck zone. Glass fibre has about five times the elongation to break of carbon and would not shatter as easily.
I have built long boards in Carbon/kevlar hybrid cloth and in straight Kevlar. Both these are highly ding resistant but really difficult to work as you need special ceramic shears to cut the kevlar fibre and any sanding of the finished laminate is impossible if you touch the kevlar.
I am currently finishing the moulds and tooling to produce a new ,high volume 380 Raceboard in vacuumed hollow sandwich construction using double biaxial glass on a 10mm hd foam core. The deck shape is designed to increaser inherent stiffness and I expect to get down to about 15.5 kg. They will have two centreboards ,either 810 mm or 700 for stronger wind stepped 100mm aft.
Theboard is in the process of being registered with Isaf as a series production board and this will be completed before the September deadline this year.
I will keep you up to date on progress and buildweight.
If I built in 100 % carbon I could save at least three kilos but would have a fragile skin,at three times the material cost.
I build in my own workshop ,at my own house ,with my own hands.
D 2 and D1 Boards I built 20 yeras ago in this method are still sailing at several clubs.
Great article – addressing a very real issue that affects a large majority of raceboard and longboard sailors.
I had feedback from a local distributor that the Phantom may be offered in two different constructions (one light, one heavier but more durable) – however, I believe that this feedback may be incorrect. I will check and report back to LBWS.
Peter England – very interested to hear more about your board. The market needs such a board – I may be interested in buying one. Please keep LBWS informed about your board. Can you provide any more information about the design?
I really liked this article. I’m constantly paranoid my Kona will hit some underwater rock and get holed. I have to be so careful when near the shore because the board is delicate. Yes, the weight saving s is nice, but I wouldn’t mind a little more durability. My F2 is from the mid 1980s and it still is in great shape. I doubt my Kona will last that long.
Of course, if boards were more durable, the manufacturers would sell fewer.
-Ian
Many aspects involve this issue.
I agree that technically a lighter board is not necessarily more fragile.
I have two old boards in good shape. One is a Mega Cat and the other one Mistral Equipe II. At the 2007 Raceboard Worlds in Argentina, my Mega Cat (that old 250 lts. model with the psychedelic blue and black deck draw) was the lightest of all the Fanatics. Sure, it is a Panzer.
Perhaps the comparison with modern Raceboards and whether there was really any significant gain, should be made taking into account the price of those boards in the early nineties. They are more resistant there is no doubt, I myself am witness of this fact, now, how much they will cost if were made today with the same techniques and materials?
Difficult to answer because the manufacturers are not the same, all currencies have experienced devaluations and also the materials have suffered constant ups and downs.
For me the important thing is that: today a new Raceboard board is very expensive and is very bad to reborn it worldwide.
In recent years we observed a mass production of manufactured goods in Asia and our sport does not escape this rule.
This concentration and the lack of another production center prevent us from comparing prices as for quality.
It would be extremely healthy for our sport, if parallel production alternatives could be created.
In my opinion raceboards should not be made heavier. My experience suggests that the modern boards are not what I would consider lighter than old designs. The basic problem is that the current technique of board manufacturing at Cobra is basically a scale up on what is used for shortboards. This I think is not ideal to get the best balance of weight and strength. In fact I have yet to see any long raceboard coming from Cobra pre 2009 that is at the quoted weight, certainly not below and generally at the top end of the tolerance or more. The problem is that the moulds and equipment used in the past were very expensive and a significant number of boards needed to be manufactured to justify the cost.
I have had many a raceboard over the years, with most being light and strong enough. The lightest was the Equipe XR, some 2 kg below the min weight all up, whilst 2 X-380’s have weighed in at around 19Kg all up, similar I believe to the 2008 Phantom. Surprisingly I have found that the performance at this weight is good and I wonder how much better it could be if it was 16Kg all up, but without a fundamental change in the construction method and laminate, I am sure structurally, it would not last.
Small puncture holes I can live with and are easy to repair, more problematic would be delamination, footstraps pulling out or cracking, but if I have a collision I expect it to be damaged. I no longer race, but I am still competitive and want the lightest board fastest board that I can buy.
I do agree though that the best option would be 2 constructions, light and strong for those that want to pay the extra and heavier and long lasting for those who don’t.
The trouble with any kind of raceboard is that it has to work in such a range of conditions that it will only ever be an imperfect compromise. In light winds, on flat (ish) water, a lighter and stiffer board will be faster and the people at the front will be prepared or able to pay for that. In strong winds and rough seas, a heavier board with a little more flex will be more controlable – I raced a Tiga Aloha as a youth so know all about heavy and bendy!!
In the end, most competitive racers will go for the lighter/stiffer option as most raceboard venues/events are lighter wind and sheltered water. Chequebook racing has been around for ages and history shows that the lighter board will sell better even if more fragile.
An interesting example is the Equipe I in the early 90s, the exact same board, but about 3kg heavier was being raced as an IMCO OD, yet virtually no-one other than the dedicated IMCO racers used it in the Raceboard fleet, despite the fact that IMCO racers regularly topped the Raceboard fleet with what was effectively inferior equipment. Some of the Equipe I boards were so light that they needed weight added to them, but people did this for perceived benefits of weight distribution.
Fanatic also produced Cats in various constructions, yet the most expensive/lightest/most fragile was the one that hit the races, despite stories of people putting their thumbs through the skin when climbing on to the board!
I have to admit to having only been able to have a quick look at the new Phantom, so can’t comment on its durability or construction. Although I did hear about a recall of all the early boards because Cobra forgot to build them with support for the daggerboard case. In my opinion and experience, Raceboards have always been very fragile, not helped by the fact that they are so big and easy to knock. For the top racers a board has usually only been for one season of hard racing. For the weekend warrior, 5 years was possible but only in the most careful of hands. It’s true that there are a lot of boards around from the late 1990s, but most of them have been repaired so much that it’s debatable what’s original on them. Most of them have only been patched up and are only still around because for 10 years there was no alternative. Now there are new boards out, these will start filtering down to the second hand markets and replace the old Cats and F2 Race 380s.
The average weekend warrior probably would benefit from a heavier and stronger construction, but there’s little economic sense in one being produced while the overall demand for raceboards is so low and the main target group of racers will opt for the more competitive lighter design.
On another point that someone else made. I fully agree that Cobra need some competition. As far as I know they are the only factory producing almost all the windsurfing boards in the market. This cannot be good either for prices or quality.
K613
p.s on a side note, I know for a fact that there is no board in production today that would take on a Laser and win! Perhaps there was something to be said for the Tiga Aloha after all…
))
if heavy means a few extra kilos for durability, I am all for it.
Seeking the lightest kit is throwing away money. The board is less durable so less puincture resistant. It can take on water after some punctures .
Also for that reason and the fact its built lighter water or no, it gets softer faster.
Then if thats the case (, as many here have mentioned ), every year or two one needs a new board ,
Who can afford that??
Personally I am a heavier sailor, at 85 kilos and as such unless it blows up to high wind conditions i cannot compete.
So my reality , I sail and race on average in lighter airs.
Even if i buy the latest lightest board, bom, mast , sail, base ext …everything !! , can i cut 10 kilos off and compete…maybe .
Probably not.
Lighter costs tons of money and is less durable. So seeking that extra kilo LESS of weight is chasing a rainbow and throwing money away.
Keep it slightly heavier and keep it durable!!
I agree, that one of best way to enjoyed life is to have fun specially when you get bored.
In fact windsurfing can be said to straddle both the laid-back culture of surf sports and the more rules-based environment of sailing.The sport has a potentially shallower (longer) learning curve when compared to other so-called “extreme” sports. But, are there easy way to learn surfing?
Brin @ secondhandwindsurfing.com
Reading about light versus heavy, it brings back memories of surfing and the debate that raged for a long time when longboards started to come back into fashion there. I personally prefer a heavier board, it adds to the glide feeling as the extra momentum really works for me. Having said that I am not a racer and so cant comment on the need for lighter equipment. I do know it would be nice sometimes to have a bit lighter board, but to be honest for a gumby like me, I dont know if I could tell the difference to be honest. As far as I can tell when actually planning along all feels pretty light and responsive to me. I guess that is the feeling of a dedicated weekend warrior with no racing aspirations.
Greg
Peter England is dead right about going silly about construction. I’ve just rescued one of his old DIV 1 hulls from the club dump. It has spent the last 3 years in the open, been immersed in flood waters regularly, travelled 400m downstream, and the only damage it shows is two small thumb size dings in the skin. Neither of these has punctured the skin, as I’ve just flushed the board out today (it’s hollow), which makes the point about why you’re trying to get a solid board so low in weight at such a large volume. There must come a minimum volume size where hollow construction wins out over solid foam, and upwards from this the hollow advantage gets ever larger. The issues about the internal air expanding/contracting and exploding the board is vastly overstated IMHO. In Oz, maybe, hardly in the Uk’s climate.
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